cardio in the am fasted state-NOT GOOD?

In my opinion, doing HIIT in a fasted state is the worst thing you can do. Same for weight-training. Doing LISS in a fasted state shouldn´t be a problem, when it is done for only 30-45 minutes. But the problem here is, that too less calories are burned by that type of training. So it would be better to go a little higher with the intensity - and eat something before the workout. 

But the most important sentence  is, that fat-burning isn´t a thing of minutes or hours, it is the long-term action that counts!

I love it when I'm right.  And thank God - I can still eat my Reeces pre-cardio!

Cool. I knew I loved food for a reason! I just ate a burrito that weighed about 2 pounds. If only I was going to do cardio... ;)

Abstract:

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Fulltext/2011/02000/Does_Cardio_After_an_Overnight_Fast_Maximize_Fat.3.aspx

This is a little bit off subject but, what about post cardio?  Do you just take in a whey protein shake ASAP?  Do you take in both protein and carbs ASAP?  Or do you drink a protein shake right away, then maybe a hour later eat a full meal containing carbs and protein?  Which makes more sense.  Or does it really matter, cause at the end of the day its all about calories in and calories out. 

protein shake after. then normal meal of carbs /protein about 2hrs later.

shake will stop muscle breakdown and fat burning will continue for about 90 -120mins.

joe?

Depends on your goals.  If you're using cardio to lose body fat, you can even just do BCAAs after and wait for an hour before protein.  To be safer, protein immediately after will do what Graig said: stop catabolism.  Add carbs and you increase anabolic potential, but you can decrease fat utilization.  Still, as this article indicates, it's still more a matter of calories in/calories out for the day.

Another fact out there from being measured for body fat

you know who is leaner sprinters(HIIT) or Endurance runners(LISS)??

That's right SPRINTERS! 

All depends on the person, their goals, and their genetics - despite the sport or activity.

http://www.ultramarathonman.com/flash/

well now that guy is a freak, read about him I think in planet muscle!

Hey Joe,

I saw this citing of someone who was posing as you on BB.com, wow who was that guy?? Nice of you to come and join the conversation about the fasted cardio!

It's always great to hear from the great mind of Dr. Joe!

At least Here's a sample of what joe said about the Fasted Cardio:

I feel like I'm wandering into a foreign country without a passport; I'm not sure I've ever posted on bb.com, but a client sent me this link and asked me to comment. The full article reports in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism drew more conclusions from an 8-subject study than you may want to validate as pure science, but nonetheless, it is common sense. You're as catabolic as you can be when you wake up, then you would want to perform an exponentially more catabolic activity? I looked back and the first time I published an article mentioning that I never recommend fasted cardio was 9 years ago. I would break the argument down into two sections. The first is the status of your body comp. If you're a male and at 16% BF - well above potential metabolic set points - fasting cardio isn't going to be that catabolic at all. It's safer to do more cardio, longer cardio, etc; but still not necessary for it to be fasted. In that example, however, I wouldn't eat a full meal - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The study showed even 24 hours later the non-fasted subjects were using a higher percent of body fat as energy - all good - but you can still get more fat used during the cardio if you're a minimalist with your pre-cardio intake. If due to the direct thermic potential of the food eaten, I get more calorie use in that cardio, should I eat 400 calories or would 40 calories be enough? If only 40 calories, wouldn't I use more energy from fat plus still get benefits of increased lipolysis all day? Yes - but it's still a continuum....you're still in a calorie deficit all day and you still have your total food consumption to consider. Fasted or fed cardio doesn't occur in a vaccuum; it's still just one part of your whole day. Those with lower body fat percentages have to be more wary of catabolism, so fed cardio for sure, but shorter sessions. My recommendations remain (depending on body size) 10-20 g of carbs and 4-5 g of BCAA about 15-20 minutes before morning cardio....or even afternoon/evening cardio given that your last full meal was 2 to 3 hours prior. You don't need protein bogging you down pre-cardio, 5 g of BCAAs has as much anti-catabolic power as 25 g of protein from whey. Sorry the post was so long - blame my client for wanting the explanation! ; )

The Layne and Dr. Joe get into it a bit:

Not as bad as the glutamine fiasco, but good none the less:

there.....on the surface. I will disagree in blanketly applying that. Per your argument, I could eat all my food in one meal, do cardio an hour later, not eat for 23 hours, repeat, and it would "all balance out." I'm talking about the fine detail of dieting that takes into account anti-catabolism all day, anabolism where you can get it when dieting, and feasibility. Thus, I would propose that still having a very moderate amount of carbs pre-cardio is better than having a ton....the rest of the day and the rest of those variables do matter and I would bet if studies were done comparing 1% of daily carb intake was ingested pre-cardio, 5%, 10%, 20%, 50%, etc, it wouldn't all just balance out - there would be differences. One or two studies with a tiny test population wouldn't sway that logic - logic based on other concrete, known physiological dogma. 

I think this is one of the newest things that is really drawing a lot of attention with so many different answers out there, but if Joe and Layne come pretty lose to a consensus about it, I'd have to go with their answers!

Yeah, baby - I've been wondering out of my own neighborhood a little; how about that, Craigster?  : ) 

To comment on the post you had above:

So the question is, how do you optimize fat oxidation during cardio without eliminating the breakfast meal? The answer is to perform low to moderate intensity cardio after a HIIT session. 

High intensity exercise has been shown to rapidly increase the amount of free fatty acids in the bloodstream, lower blood insulin levels and increase fat oxidation after the bout. Accordingly, studies have shown that performing low to moderate intensity cardio after high intensity exercise----sprints or weight training--- increases fat oxidation. That method allows you to mimic the effect of doing cardio in a fasted state without the harmful effects of skipping breakfast"

I don't know what he means by perform moderate cardio after a HIIT session?  Misprint?  Do cardio after cardio? 

His comment about doing cardio after training is 20-year-old info out of a textbook.  Doing cardio after training is a last resort in my book.  If it must be done - scheduling doesn't work any other way, or you just don't need a lot of cardio, then 10-15 minutes is fine, but I'd still rather have someone eating right away.  You train - then eat.  You need recovery.  Cortisol levels are sky-high after training, you're catabolic....then go do cardio?  It's the same question as doing cardio fasted: not preferred.

Hey Joe here's another article about it and was in the newest Planet Muscle and written by Jerry Brainum:

To eat or not to eat, that is the question

By

Jerry Brainum

Bodybuilding has its share of myth and misunderstanding. For example, most bodybuilders will only eat egg whites, not the yolks. The rationale is that the fat is in the yolk, while the egg white is fat-free and pure protein. While it’s true that both the cholesterol and fat content is in the yolk, so is half the protein, as well as all the other nutrients such as choline and lutein. Choline is the raw material for the neurotransmitter acetycholine required for muscle contraction. Choline can be synthesized in the body from certain amino acids and studies suggest that it can become depleted by extended exercise sessions. Lutein is found in some veggies, but studies reveal that egg lutein is more readily assimilated. Lutein is antioxidant, specifically in the eyes to help prevent oxidative damage from the sun’s ultraviolet rays. So bodybuilders who ‘lose’ egg yolks lose vital nutrients and half the protein. Unless you have high metabolic cholesterol (LDL and VDLDL-low and very low LDL) and/or total cholesterol, egg yolks can and should be consumed.

            With training and myth with abdominals, many of you are doing hundreds of reps to try and spot reduce your body fat stores in your gut. Now, if one has had success doing 1,000’s of reps of daily abdominal exercises it does not mean this is ideal. Spot reducing to this extent, is myth.

            But many are subject to cognitive dissonance. This means if one does not hold to a false ingrained belief and tries to dismiss it, there is  a great deal of anxiety and emotional/mental stress created and people unconsciously work to avoid that.

            In training, my favorite area of misunderstanding is that for maximum fat loss, you must do aerobics first thing in the morning (or whenever you get up) and it must be on an empty stomach. When you sleep, you are fasting and while decreased, your body still needs energy. MD’s do not advise eating any kind of larger meal before bed as there is not appropriate activity to ‘burn’ glucose and therefore the pancreas has to release insulin to deal with circulating sugars. Protein is the best choice if one eats close to bed as the body will tend to store any excess sugar as fat, especially if the muscle and liver glycogen stores are full, which is fairly easy to accomplish by diet. Assuming you do not eat within 3 hours of bedtime, certainly your stored glucose (glycogen) will be lower when you wake up. Glucose and glycogen (stored in the muscle and liver) are the primary and initial fuel used during the 1^st 30 minutes of aerobic exercise and the primary fuel in power, anaerobic exercise such as resistance bodybuilding. The suggestion is made to do morning aerobics on an empty stomach. The reason is that since any remaining glucose/glycogen should be used up during sleep, you will tap into fat stores for energy more quickly than usual.

It is not quite this simple though. In a “usual scenario of exercise, fat isn’t used for fuel during aerobics until one is about 30 min in. As exercise continues at low intensity, more fat because all existing stores of glycogen and glucose get depleted. Fat use peaks during steady state aerobics at about the 90 minute mark. LSD training (long, slow distance) would cause greater fat burning (and does hold in general, if you are boring enough to be plodding along for 3 hours). Advanced ultra marathoners have been advised to do some carb loading for 24-48 hours prior to an event to get more use of stored glycogen before they tap into (and run out of) all available fat energy stores.

But, in reality, most of us do not burn much fat during typical aerobics as we are a long way from the predicted metabolic status of an advanced long distance competitor. Exercise does promote a greater use of fat in the hours following exercise, and fat loss should be viewed as a chronic adaption (think weeks, months not hours/days). Fat oxidation is complex, involving substrates, muscle mass, hormones, enzymes, and dozens of in-situ factors. For many (even most) people, the type of exercise that may promote the greatest fat oxidation might not be long, steady state aerobics, but might be high intensity interval training. (Intervals used to be called Fartlek Training). We are learning more about this all the time. Obviously 99% of us do not reach the metabolic stare of advanced aerobic athletes just as the average person will not near ingest as much protein as Jay Cutler does.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) is characterized by alternating high intensity (raising your HR to 70-80% of max or more) with low intensity (40-60% of your max HR). It may be considered more interesting for some and spinning is one popular form. Now, it is true that the higher your exercise intensity, (consider doing a 3 rep max bench press or squat), the less fat you oxidize. Sugar is the preferred source of energy and during exercise, there’s decreased blood flow to fat cells (more blood is diverted to muscle). This prevents the release of free fatty acids in the blood for fat burning. Interestingly, engaging in high intensity interval aerobics does burn a lot of fat long term because interval training boosts poet exercise resting metabolism and at rest, the body prefers to burn fat!

Many studies have examined eating prior to training and fat burning and fasting prior to training and fat burning. Interestingly, studies show that eating prior to training results in greater fat oxidation compared to fasting prior to training. It makes no difference if the subjects consumed carbs either just before the workout. Eating before training promotes a greater poet exercise use of oxygen. You get a higher rise in resting metabolism with a meal before training compared to not eating.

Eating before training also produces a greater thermogenic effect (use of caloric energy for work that is lost as heat production). Eating protein before a workout adds to this effect because protein produces the greatest thermogenic effect. Protein is not as efficient for energy as carbs and fats are so when used for energy, more work is lost to heat. Fat produces about 9 cals per gram oxidized whereas carbs and protein are around 4 cals per gram.

Most bodybuilders are not aware that the source of fat burned during steady state aerobics isn’t from subcutaneous fat, (fat just below the skin), but from intramuscular fat stores. The more endurance training that you do, the greater the storage of fat in muscle, since fat is more efficient as a fuel for extended exercise. During a 2 hour bout of aerobics in a trained person, these intramuscular fat stores contribute 80% of the fat used during exercise.

Exercising while fasting tends to increase nitrogen protein losses. This means when glycogen stores are depleted and no food is consumed; the body will dip into protein (muscle), to provide fuel over time.

One study found that nitrogen losses doubled during training while fasted versus training while fed. When fasted subjects cycled for an hour, at low intensity protein loss was 10.4% of the total caloric cost of the exercise. Over time, doing aerobics with fasting will be catabolic, resulting in muscle loss. As well, it’s difficult to achieve high intensity when you haven’t eaten anything! Consider too, the hormonal situation! If you do aerobics early in the morning after an overnight fast, you are also doing it when cortisol is peaking. Cortisol is regarded as a catabolic hormone. A lack of circulating amino acids in the blood (no food) means that cortisol is more likely to promote the use of muscle protein as a furl source, particularly if you opt to do a longer aerobic session exceeding 45 min to an hour. A high cortisol level also promotes the release of myostatin, a protein that serves to block muscle growth. The good news is that under normal conditions, as in a fed state, cortisol levels don’t increase until 60 minutes of steady state aerobics. If you ‘sip some carbohydrate drinks’ during the training, cortisol levels won’t rise at all.

When you add it all up, for the vast majority, there is no great advantage to doing aerobics in the am while fasted. If you look at the RQ (respiratory quotient), the oxygen inhaled versus carbon dioxide exhaled as representing metabolic nutrient use, whereas the data suggests that one burns slightly more fat when exercising first thing in the am, (the RQ is then about .8 and the RQ of carbs is 1 and the fast is .7), unless you are a conditioned athlete, you are just not likely to do it (bur more fat that is!). For the vast majority, gut comfort should probably be your best guide. Eating something is more likely to promote greater fat oxidation effects after training due to the higher thermic effects produced while training, as well as higher post-exercise oxygen use.

IN short, all metabolic and exercise physiologists suggest that no matter what or when the exercise, there should be some appropriate dietary fuel in your system. 

I really don't want to sound defensive or haughty, it just cracks me up that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon now after one journal article.  How long, Craig, have I had clients eat some carbs before even morning cardio?  This science has been around in parts for a long time, but one study makes its way into bodybuilding circles and now everyone is an expert.  I'd love to see every "author's" recommendations they made a year ago.  The old "I was for it before I was against it" routine...."I voted for it before I voted against it." 

Like I said, just funny to me.  Hoorah that people will get better advice by all the super-duper trainers and experts out there now.

and yet there are still people that just refuse to believe this great new research! Yes you lose fat on fasted cardio, but eventually you also will lose hard earned muscle!

Yes I at least remember back as far as when you 1st started with me back in 2002! so yes you've been preaching to the choir who want to listen please do so and do what optimum, not just because he/she said so!