Metabolism

Okay, so I was wrong - no one likes my new thread. 

Client emailed and said she was frustrated because after making a move downward in protein, her weight went back up a bit.  This client, like many with slow met structures, has had a hard time losing. She's down, it's consistent for the most part, but slow.  Endorph city.  A little instructional reply I sent her that I thought may churn up some discussion here:

When you drop calories, you can't create body fat - body fat can't be made from anything except food excess.  If the slightly lower intake means your GI system slows down a bit, you may be retaining a little more in transit, but you'll still lose body fat faster - it may just take a couple of days for it to register on the scale.  I recently read a  book about a Nazi concentration camp survivor - he was in three different camps for 4 or 5 years.  I don't recall him mentioning anyone who was overweight because their metabolism slowed down from eating too little - just grown men dying at 70-80 lbs.  Point being, though your met rate can slow down - and will slow down - as you diet and get leaner due to your body just being more efficient and not needing as much, it never stops using calories.  At an absolute minimum, you're using over 1,000 calories a day no matter what or how you eat.  Likely with your training expenditure, you're using over 1,500 calories per day, so it's impossible not to lose as long as you average under that.  That's weight loss-101, but then you have all the variables that go into losing faster, keeping your met rate as strong as it can be, retaining muscle, etc. 

I love your new thread, Joe. Well, I would, wouldn't i ? 

With most people, I suspect the lack of response is due an absense of knowledge and real experience on the subject. But, we are all willing to learn, so keep 'em coming!

The line about the Nazi Concentration Camp survivor was a coincidence. Only the other day, I overheard someone saying " Well, you must be doing something wrong. You never saw any fat people in the concentration Camps, did you. " It's an old line, of course, but nevertheless, very true!

Joe did i mention that i love this thread!?!

i think this has some really good points in it. it is the old adage that if you don't eat every 2-3 hrs you are going to lose muscle and your "starving your body" thus you are storing body fat and decreasing your metabolism.  you can't lose muscle that fast and can't crush your met rate that fast either.

either way your met rate is ultimately going to determine how much or how little you can eat and still lose. as you get leaner you just simply "need " less, therefore you must keep things in perspective is really important ..Most people wonder why they lost at such and such macro's and now can't lose at those same numbers, not taking into account the 10-20lbs they lost, therefore needing less food to support their new (less bf)body. but the moral of the story is if you are in a deficit you are using BF for energy just maybe not a lbs worth at that day or moment.... it may take time and people should realize that weight loss is shown on a longer term basis, not necessarily daily on the scale. patience must be adhered to.

a lot of people like to blame their met rate for lack of weight loss.

Joe - i also think that some people think that they have a slow met rate  but the reality is at a 1000 ft view, you see that they are slamming meals too close together or maybe not tracking certain foods that count, maybe too many art. sweeteners..... regardless of met rate, you will not lose doing that. i'm sure you could shed some light on that?? you could be an extreme ecto, and if you do the above not lose an ounce???

Great Thread!! Just what i was looking for at this point in my dieting out!.........

Absolutely, Graig - a potential client called last night and the conversation was similar.  "I'm a nutrition expert, I teach this for a living, I work out longer and harder than anyone, and I can't lose weight!"  Me:  Do you track your food?  Caller:  No.

End of conversation.

Not really - just the beginning!  But, you get my drift.  I am NOT an advocate of tracking nutrition forever - it's been 4 years since I weighed or measured any food, but you better believe I "count the cost" of everything I consume.  Until you know as much about nutrition and as much about your body as you need to know, you need the self-accountability.  Even then, if you want consistent, predictable results - it's back to the food count websites.

This is EXACTLY the thread I've been hoping for.  I am at a total loss as to what to do.

Background:  45 year old female endurance athlete/bodybuilder wannabe.

I competed in the Ironman triathlon last year (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, 26.2 mile run).  I trained excessively hard for a year and got very lean (5'6", 113 lbs., 10-12% body fat).  I trained an average of 4 hours/day.  I also tried to keep up with my weightlifting during this time, as that is my 1st passion.

I knew I would not be able to maintain that level of leanness forever  and didn't really want to -- I looked ripped but also a little skeletal.  I knew I wasn't properly fueling my body (not eating enough) but didn't care because for the 1st time in my life I had visible abs!!

I need to somehow reset my metabolism.  I am a vegetarian and try to follow a high protein/low carb diet.  I weigh my food for accuracy, maintain a food log, and avoid processed food.  My only real carbs are oatmeal (steel cut oats), vegetables (I eat a bag of frozen veggies per day) and a tiny bit of fruit (1 oz) in my protein shakes.  I eat LOTS of egg whites (@dozen per day), veggie burgers and protein shakes.  I practice nutrient timing.  My caloric intake is limited to 1200-1500 per day.  Here's the kicker, though...

I continue to train 2 hours in the morning and another 1-2 hours in the afternoon.  We're talking heavy weights and intense cardio intervals, mixed in with long moderate runs (10-12 miles) and bike rides (25-30 miles).  According to my heart rate monitor, I burn at least 1000 calories a day and it takes a lot of work to do that, believe me.  I love to push myself.

Every time I try to relax my regime a little, the weight/fat jumps up.  I've tried maintaining the training but just eating more.  I've tried maintaining calories and significantly reducing training.  Same thing.  I'm currently up 4-5% in fat composition.  I don't care too much about scale weight (that's up also - about 5-8 lbs) as I'm trying to add some muscle.  I just can't allow it to get any higher.

What else can I do?  I want to at least maintain at this point -- why being able to eat more as I'm hungry all the time.

thanks for jumping in sryko!! awesome job on the triathlon, i commend you!

with out knowing your body and situation i'm going to limit the throwing of advice your way but there are some areas of improvement or suggestion. and i'm sure Joe will chime in as well, but i'll give it a stab, joe slap me if i'm off at all...:) 

the whole "reset my metabolism" may or may not be true, i'm sure you mean let your metabolism catch back up after training & dieting like the above...it def depends on how long you've been dieting and training like that and what you did at the end of that phase(ie go back to eating 'normal', and shut down activity rapidly).

you mentioned that you track and weight your food, but at a glance sounds like you are guessing and you just don't know "how much " you should eat daily and what macro's you should be at for pro, carb and fat. so team k/diet doc guidance might help there ;)

some potential issues even while maintaining:

1) you have a 300 cal difference there which believe it or not can add up and cause you not to lose over time. eat 300 cals over your body's allotment one too many times and BAM you gain, period.

2) you are counting cals,not macros- and research shows that by shifting the ratio of macro's, while eating the same cals... you can lose significantly more body fat.

3) you've tried working out more to balance the more food to maintain weight loss, but remember that you can never out work your food choices and maintain/lose, food always wins.

4) also the reason you are most likely hungry all the time is because you are working out 3-4hrs a day. that would make anyone hungry ;)

couple of questions before we can help more...

are you training that many hrs in the day for an event or to lose weight/maintain? those are two very different scenario's, and can change how a person should eat based on performance and not weight loss. 

are you wanting to lose? maintain? sounds to me like you want to be leaner. just checking

also check out joes article-

http://perfectpeaking.com/articles/three-steps-mega-fat-loss

hope this was helpful and you didn't mind the critique!

graig

I just emailed a client this info a second ago - virtually the same question.  My client's question is to further understand why after dieting for a long time - years in her case - she is eating less and not losing as fast.  Let me know if it applies at all:

Your metabolism is likely slow genetically - or you wouldn't have ever gained weight easily in the first place.
Your metabolism does slow with prolonged dieting.
But, like the two examples, you can still lose - you just have to eat less.
If you're not willing to do that, you won't lose.
Part of the long-term solution is to have a good off-season where you do increase calories, but slowly so you don't gain body fat - that's hard for most people....to incrementally increase food without going overboard. 
Many people assume "since I lose just fine (the first 20 lbs) and now I'm eating less, working out more, and NOT losing - something is wrong....." when actually it is normal slowdown and normal increased efficiency.  Those people often think they should eat more food - to stimulate their met rates.  And, that is true long term, but it will stop weight loss for now.  You can try to chase your metabolism back up with more food - as I mentioned you should in an offseason, but as you do that, you're in calorie overages or maintenance levels at best and you won't lose until you're back in deficits.

Thank you for the critique.  Any advice/suggestion is always welcome.

More info:  I know exactly how much I eat everyday, including macro breakdown.  Everything is logged on The Daily Plate.  I say calories range from 1200-1500 because I don't eat the exact same thing everything (well, yeah I do, I just add a little more on truly strenuous days.) 

Here's where the real confusion comes in... So much info. out there says you can stall your metabolism by overtraining/undereating for prolonged periods of time.  Your body then actually holds on to fat.  You guys seem to be saying I've become so efficient that my caloric need is that much less.  I guess in a sense they are the same.

My question boiled down to "Am I overeating or undereating?" 

I'll try reducing exercise again - take a cardio break and focus more on lifting.  Given the amount of work I was doing, 1200-1500 calories/day just seemed so low  - and I was gaining weight.

I'm not training for anything specific right now - I just love to train.  Performance isn't the focus right now, physique is.  At this point I guess I'd be happy to stay where I'm at.

Thanks again!

Your metabolism naturally slows down as you get leaner for a couple reasons.

1) At 200 lbs versus 160 lbs, you use less calories, period.  It takes less calories to do everything because you're leaner.

2) As your body fat cells become more deplete of fatty acids, you hormonally signal your brain to slow down energy use - natural metabolic slowdown; or metabolic set point theory.

Add to that, the fact that you are actively are dieting to get there....the two above things happen just because you are there.  When dieting, the longer and harder you go into calorie deficit, yes your metabolism slows down.  There are ways to blunt this - it's what I do with clients....different strategies for different body types and different contexts, but still overall similar in nature.  I can't answer every question specific to you without having the  history of working with you and getting to know your metabolism/body, but all the things I write about in my articles regarding metabolism would be good review.

Thank you so much.  A little dose of reality does a body good

Joe hit on this and one thing I will add here is that many of the people I talk to and work with are under the impression their metabolic rate is static or linear. "I burn X amount of calories every day". And as Joe just pointed out, your actual metabolic rate is a pretty dynamic creature. So when you start to talk over-eating or under-eating, its really not a question of "what is right for me?" its a question of "what is right for me at this point in time?". That is why we manipulate food levels the way we do. A good dieting strategy is one that is very reactive to what is going on with your body at any one time.

Sean hit the nail on the head with that!  At least for me, the same things can have different results at any given time.   The human body is such a unique and complicated organism with so many different variables changing daily that affect the results we see from what we eat and how we train.  What has worked miraculously for me at one time, doesn't give me any results now, but probably in a month or two, will work again.  I don't know how to explain it.  In fact, while most people need to eat less and have a harder time losing weight the leaner they get, I for some odd reason seem to be opposite.  the leaner I get and the closer to a show I get, the quicker the weight starts to drop.  It has always been that way.  This is the only consistency in my body I have found to date and seems to go against all logic.

  keeping hormomes like insulin low, cortisol low, and  leptin as high as possible play in this game.  Trust me Joe thinks about this stuff when putting together plans for clients.  Also, some females may have decreased progesterone or estrogen dominance which can make fat loss tough.   The inflamation that is caused by food allergies can also slow down weight loss.  It is certainly possible to be allergic to foods and not even know it. 

I like this thread on metabolism, and you all have added some really insightful comments, thanks.

Joe - you mentioned the following: "When dieting, the longer and harder you go into calorie deficit, yes your metabolism slows down.  There are ways to blunt this - it's what I do with clients....different strategies for different body types and different contexts, but still overall similar in nature."

I am interested in knowing what are the most common scenarios you experience managing clients met rates, and the ways in which you plan your attack?  Could you generalize between men vs. women, ecto/endo/meso-morph body types?  Assuming the person in question is doing their homework, i.e. accurately tracking food intake and eating clean and has no glaring issues health-wise.

If the met rate is running like a high speed train 2, 3 or even 4 months after competition, still being lean, gaining strength, adding weight slowly (2-3 pounds/month), etc. - is this an optimal situation to be in heading into the contest prep phase or is there ever the consideration that maybe the met rate never slowed down not allowing the body to make any necessary/desired gains?  Is there a fine line between adding "quality mass/weight" with a high running metabolism versus eating so much food that the met rate slows down abruptly adding more body fat than desired (say in the off-season)?  And finally, heading into the 20 week contest prep time frame, with a fast met rate, eating more food, best case scenario still, correct?

Thanks for your time, and as we all know "real men aren't soft."  Hah!

Okay, I have a question, too. I have read an article of Dr. John Berardi about tuning your metabolism by increasing the so called G-Flux. What do you think about the G-Flux concept?

By his own definition:

Well, G-Flux, otherwise known as energy flux (or energy turnover) is the relationship between energy intake and expenditure. It's the balance between the two. Put another way, it's the amount of calories you "turn over".

The point he makes is that you can create the same calorie deficit in different ways.  If I want a 500 calorie deficit and my basal metabolic rate is 2,000 calories, I can eat 1,500 calories and do no training.  I can use 300 calories in a workout, therefore I now have to eat 2,300 calories to get the same 500-calorie deficit or I could even train and burn 1,000 calories and now I have to consume 3,000 calories.  The amount of "turn over" is what you're using and have to consume to make up for it. 

The benefits to more training can be hormonal - more adrenaline for fat loss.....but you can overtrain and get so much cortisol that you're catabolic.  Still a slippery slope and there are clear advantages to training more and eating more, but you have to be careful to get enough rest and recover/take days off when you need to.

A good question from a client on how often to schedule a higher-carb day. 

My answer:

Depending on workouts, you should feel ready for an increase every 3-5 days, but if it's mild and you can stretch it out, you'll just lose more.  Once you're depleted, you use a higher percent of body fat for energy, so you've already invested 2, 3, 4 days to get there - it's the next days that get more bang for your buck.  The other side of that coin is you don't want to go so far that you're risking muscle loss or just losing too fast - or, for some people, losing control and binging.  I schedule 1 or 2 increases per week for most clients, but it depends on their body types, needs, food levels I have them on, etc.

Great thread which I UNFORTUNATELY struggle with - as a client of Joe's he knows this full well!! It is a HUGE struggle for me to get as lean as I'd like to win a show.  I am trying BB (done figure/fitbody for last 2 years) which is a bit of masochism on my part b/c of how slowly I lose.  I eat about 1100 to 1150 calories a day   not that I think that way, I think in macros but I know that's where the numbers fall -- and STILL the scale won't move or barely budges for weeks at a time.  It becomes a real test of mental fortitude at times even more than physical.

Joe - here is my question -- you mention up in this thread that the client might be using artifical sweeteners and I think you say how this might be why they're not losing.  Can you please explain this a bit?  Why?  I certainly do use them daily and I'd love to know if this is part of my issues? (Unfortunately, I think it might be the estrogen levels of a 40 something woman and maybe my metabolism/body need a break since I've been mostly dieting for 3 years for shows - but I'd love to know if there's a smoking gun to point the blame at and FIX!!)

What happens when you smell fantastic food?  You learn this in gradeschool health?  Your mouth waters - preparing for digestion.  Literally, digestion is starting just due to the smell of food.  When you taste something sweet, even moreso does your body prepare by releasing enzymes into your stomach and insulin to prepare for shuttling and storage.  Follow the taste with liquid or food hitting your stomach and you're in full-blown parasympathetic nervous system digestive processes.  So, what if there really aren't any calories - it's just Crystal Light or diet drinks or 5 packets of Splenda in your coffee?  You still can release more insulin and even without the sugar/carbs to store, that takes you out of fat-burning potential modes.....you're chemically preparing your body for storage/assimilation, not autolytic usage (fat burning).  It also can lead to more hunger and hypoglycemia. Studies show the more artificial sweeteners a person consumes, they consume more calories typically.

So would you say that it is better to use sugar than an artificial sweetener when you are dieting and when I mean "use " I mean a little in your coffee or whatever you want? Will it slow down your weight loss like an artificial sweetener? I am a pure stevia extract drop user, but unfortunately I am not able to use my 15 drops, yes 15 drops in my coffee at this time since I am competing in 6 weeks. I will tell you though, that when I was using it, i had dizziness and now I do not experience that anymore. THE ONLY THING IS THAT MY COFFEE TASTES HORRIBLE!

Tina

Dr. Joe,

Will this same type of response (maybe to a smaller degree) occur with sweet potatoes?

Thanks,

sartir29

Would I recommend sugar instead?  Only if you don't want to lose body fat ; )  Take the sugar that has.....sugar (carbs/calories) or the artificial which causes a similar (but smaller) rise in insulin.  Sugar/carbs/cals with insulin or no sugar/carb/cals with insulin, but also with potential increased hunger and hypoglycemia.....I'd take neither if I'm trying to lose body fat.

Not sure I understand the question on sweet potato.  Similar to the question on sugar, go back to nutrition 101.....carbs consumed equals carbs in your body which equals those carbs being used as energy or stored and body fat usage stopping.  Not sure what that has to do with artificial sweeteners, but maybe I'm not understanding the questions?

What about the amounts of sugar that are in our foods when you are dieting for a contest? Does that affect weight loss in any way or is it the table sugar we are talking about and artificial sweeteners?

Tina

The question about the result of eating Sweet Potato's was related to the fact that your body prepares to digest something sweet tasting and therefore results in the same or similar response to ingesting an artificial sweeter or actual sugar.

Sorry if this is confusing...just wondering just how much your body responds to tasting something sweet.

Thanks,

sartir29

LOVE THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!! 

So this might answer my question. I think maybe that's why it is taking me so damn long to lose this weight. I feel like every morning that I get on the scale, i am expected to see the weight drop, drop, drop again, but in my case it is not happening  fast enough. Thank god I have Joe and Sean who are encouraging me every day.

SO maybe at this point in my dieting process(6 weeks out) it means that my GI is slowing a bit? What do you think, Joe?

I feel like my body is so sensitive. If i take a bite of let's say half a cookie at night, I will see it on the scale the next morning. WTH? Am I that sensitive at this point. I don't get it!

I think I need to not depend so much on the damn scale and focus on what my body is looking like in the next 6 weeks.

I JUST WANT TO BE READY FOR STAGE FOR MY FIRST FIGURE SHOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any thoughts?

Tina

Hi Tina,

Good luck on your show  :)    You have to follow what Joe says, especially 6 weeks out!   The weight should not pour off, you want to save/maintain as much lean muscle as possible,while losing body fat.  I hope you were speaking metaphorically about a bite of a cookie before bed and seeing it the next day  ;)   As for the stevia drops, what else is in it?   Sweetleaf stevia has zero carbs / fat /protein.  

Good luck!

Liz

Hey Joe!

A few posts ago, you recommended not to use sweeteners. So would it be better in your opinion to use non-flavored protein powders and BCAA capsules instead of for example Xtend during prep?

Correct, Philipp, drink mixes that have more Splenda than BCAAs (all of them) can wreak havoc for people who are sensitive to them.  I definitely recommend capsules.

Sweet potato, Sartir; yes - as any carb makes your body release insulin - but when you're eating sweet potato, you're eating it because you want the carbs.  It's not an artificial sweetener in a drink between meals, in coffee, tea, etc.  Between meals you want your body using body fat for energy and if your body is producing insulin, you're dampening that effect. 

Tina, that's just metabolism in general.  I was reading a bunch of research this week for our new book we're working on and I was reminded again and again and again how the metabolic rate naturally and normally comes down when dieting.  You're missing the thermic potential of higher calorie levels AND your body just needs less food.  If I lose 10 lbs, that's 10 lbs my body doesn't have to carry around....you're lighter, leaner, more efficient, and just don't require as many calories.  Gain 100 lbs and you could likely triple your food intake just to maintain that extra weight.  If you want to carry around the extra hundred lbs ; )