Protein Needs

I like it! One less e-mail you have to answer for me!

One more thing to say since we're on the topic of how much your body needs (protein), though how much you can assimilate at one time is less than most think, your metabolic rate/body type significantly dictates how much you need or can assimilate overall.  Someone with a fast met rate is churning through energy so fast, that even blood amino acid levels are metabolized faster.  How often you eat, is a big deal to those with faster met rates, therefore......compared to our discussion in the other thread where I mention those with slower met rates just don't have to eat as often - nor should they.

This is interesting to me. When I do shows, I usually put my protein around, what joe?...200-250g...weighing in anywhere from 160-180 lb depending on how close I am. And I always feel so paranoid that I'll lose muscle if I get..say 199g on one day. These days, I'm really not counting protein, but I'd say some days I get possibly as low as 100g, yet even as I shed some bodyfat I've been able to retain strength and muscle. I don't really count carb numbers either, I just target the intake- prioritize breakfast, pre/post workout and eat to be satiated, not stuffed. I do cardio frequently, sometimes 2x/day if I feel so inclined and some days, I'll even go basically vegetarian. I'm watching carefully, yet surprisingly enough, my worst fears about becoming a shriveled piece of celery have NOT manifested. I've actually gotten a little bigger on top of leaner.

What gives, man? Somebody lied to us!

Danno!!!

good to see you're back, i'm in the same boat as you. some days it's mostly around 100 sometimes less, and just really for hunger issues. I just don't feel the need to choke down protein just to get to a number that "seems" right...They've all lied to us about protein needs!!! :)

but the reality is that i've lost ZERO muscle, i'm actually leaner than i've been eating more carbs. i like the fact that you can eat less protein and more carbs because you need to fill that gap in calories.

when dieting you can easily eat 1grm /lb and be just fine. i remember hearing joe talk about a guy he was dieting who couldn t eat protein because of upper GI issues when dieting for a show and only at like 50 grms or something...and joe was amazed with his progress and lost no size because he ate more carbs....

maybe joe will chime in again??

Yes, let's hope Joe is around to offer thoughts from his experiences with clients and himself , on this topic.

I have doubted the figures that are the generally accepted norm, for years. One of the reasons for this is that " Mr. Ripped " himself, namely Clarence Bass, has been living on around 100 gms per day for the last 40 years and on a near vegetarian diet and even now, at 73 years, is still managing to hold onto muscle. He would not claim, I feel sure, that he is as good as he was at 35 years, but he is not a million miles away far from it. Does what we require each day, vary with each person's sensitivity to carbohydrates? Probably, I would guess . . . . what say you, Joe?

Anyone else have anything to say on this . . . . . .?

Actually, Joe and I have been discussing this very issue these past few days.  He has been taking in around 75-100g protein every day for a year and is doing great with that.  I couldn't imagine taking in that little simply because it would mean I would have to increase carbs to fill in the gaps and I am afraid of carbs and have convinced myself I am carb sensitive.  I blame the media and the bodybuilding world itself for instilling the fear of carbs in me causing me to rely so heavily on protein (also the belief that without massive amounts of protein you cannot build muscle).  I was telling Joe back when I was in my 20's I ate much less protein and got it mostly from egg beaters and yogurt.  I ate mostly fruit, vegetables and grains.  I was very lean back then and didn't have any trouble keeping my weight down, in fact, it was hard for me to put on weight.  I do have to say though, my body composition has improved since I added in chicken and fish (my lean body mass has increased), but I still think I don't need as much as I am taking in and would be fine if I ate more vegetables/beans and less meat.  I would really love to experiment with an lacto-ovo vegetarian diet.  It resembles quite a bit how I ate before I entered into the bodybuilding world and when I was able to stay lean without insane amounts of cardio.  Of course one big factor I need to remember, I was in my 20's and now I am in my 40's which right there accounts for a lot of why it was easier to stay leaner back then as compared to now.

Interesting to hear about that, Annette.

I remember a radio interview that Joe gave, where he told us of the story of the time when he was studying and used himself as a guinea pig for 6 months, consuming around 70 gms per day with no adverse effects to his body or his training. If my memory is lacking, I am sure he will elaborate further. The authorities, presumably made up of scientists, doctors and researchers, have told us that we don't need much more protein than that amount, each day. 'The experts don't always get everything right of course, but they probably have more knowledge than the average supplement / magazine company that pushes their wares.

Presumably when you are consuming far less protein, this will automatically be replaced by more carbohydrates, providing the immediate energy to train harder, which in itself will hold onto more muscle. No doubt there is a lot more to it than that, depending on your body type / metabolism. I remember a couple of years ago when I attempted to get into shape under Joe's guidance, that I had a slight ( hopefully ) medical problem. I was advised by the doctor at the hospital, to consume less protein for my health's sake. I put this to Joe and suggested reversing my macro's, ie. 200 carbs and 150 gms protein. Joe told me that this is OK, but it will take me a lot longer to achieve the end result. I never did try.

Hey, Gang!  Sorry for my European, laid-back way of answering on the forum ; )   I have two 21" (or 22) monitors, but I'm thinking of getting 4 or 8 so I can have an entire bank of browsers and applications opened at once.  Once one gets minimized, it's out of sight/out of mind.....oh, the limitations of time.

So, I have just finished one year as a lacto-ovo vegetarian.  Blood was drawn last week, the first body comp stats taken (but I want to do that a couple more times and replicate the context as close to previous dieting to make sure it's an accurate comparison), and I'll even take pictures!   In 12 months I lost 9 lbs.  Initial body comp stats show me at 7% which would put my lean body mass about where it should be normally - no muscle loss.  The first time I did this was for my master's thesis and it was more for protein needs - very controlled, 75 g per day, 6 months, hydrostatically weighed before and after at the I.U. Med Center, and after losing (I think) 15 lbs, I didn't lose any LBM.  At that time, competing was huge to me - so supplementation was huge - creatine, BCAAs, glutamine, likely HMB and anything else I could justify.  The purpose of this year was to see the practicality of it as a lifestyle.  I didn't track food at all, ate what I want, when I want, and I'm looking at the blood work as a huge indicator of whether people can eat vegetarian and be healthier, or will A1C be higher, maybe even triglycerides from carbs being more dominant, etc.  I'm pretty darn excited to find out.  Either way - good or bad - I'll report fully, but after I continue to add new controls and get more data.....I'm not doing a one-and-done view of this. 

This all started with post-competition goals of just being healthier, more practical, not obsessing about food, etc.  I still train hard, but I've been nursing some injuries, so that may show my LBM down a little - we'll see.  I haven't squatted more than 315 in 2 years (actually took three months off from legs 18 months ago), just now up to 8 plates per side on the leg press (best was 13.5), haven't deadlifted more than 365 in 18 months, bench press is max of 70-80 instead of 100 (DB)......IT Band issue in one hip, slight tricep tear, shoulder issue....just a handful of things that may make the LBM a bit skewed, but we'll see.  Improving steadily. 

I'm certainly not going on an anti-protein or pro-vegetarian crusade, but just want the facts and I want to make sure I can offer general population clients the most practical, easiest, most flexible ways of eating possible.  The learning never stops at The Diet Doc ; )

What's all this " European, laid-back way of answering on the forum " ?   Somewhat akin to the way the Europeans play golf, would you say  . . . . . ?

Anyway, despite that , I eventually enjoyed the write-up. Some interesting items in there, apart from the " I haven't squatted more than 315 in 2 years. More like 32, in my case! Keep us all posted . . . . .

Great stuff Joe.  I am really looking forward to see the results.  As I mentioned, I am seriously considering that type of diet myself.  At least for a while.  I honestly think I may feel better physically.   I have eaten so much chicken the past few years it almost nauseates me at this point.  I would love to try getting protein from other sources.  I am a little nervous of the high carb level, but it doesn't seem to have had a negative effect on you Joe, with losing weight eating what you want and when you want.  Can't beat that!  Of course keeping in mind the carbs are healthy (i.e. beans, rice, vegetables and fruit) and not twinkies and dinner rolls.

I also like that you took a while off from doing legs and lived to tell about it.  I literally suffer through leg day all the time because of my knee, and for several days after.  I think laying off legs, or at least squats and lunges, for a while might do some good.  I may give that a shot as well. 

just finishing mark sisson's book, "the primal blueprint"......conceptually the caveman diet

fresh, organic, unprocessed food

omega 3 (essential fats)

clean protein.:  ...grass fed beef, fish, chicken

nuts, fruit, lots of vegetables

minimal grains of any type

still tweaking and fine tuning....early results (are promising, 2 weeks).....i continue to be 172 pounds 9.5% bf. energy levels, strength and recovery seem good......basically Dr. Joe's bodybuilding diet but trading various grains for quality fats (sardine's, salmon, omega 3 supplements)

I remember someone else on the forum had been trying the caveman diet and he really liked it.  He lost weight without even really trying and felt better.  I think it all boils down to eating what works best for your particular system as long as it is healthy, unprocessed (or at least minimally processed) foods.  Some people feel great with lots of carbs while others feel much better on a lower carb, higher fat (healthy fat) diet.   It takes a lot of experimenting to finally find what works.  I have found over years of experimenting, that it is not so much the type of food I eat (of course it has to be healthy food, I am referring to  carbs, protien, fat), but the portions.  My digestive system is very sensitive and can handle only a small amount of food at a time or I bloat.  When I eat very small meals a little more frequently (although not much more frequently) , I feel much better.  Even though I get hungry, I still feel physically better with less food in general....Darn.

Pearl...how many grams of carbs are you getting each day? Sounds like you are pretty low.

How did I know you would pick that line out, Alan?  ; )  Yes, a jealous shot....doesn't everyone in Europe sip coffee in their robe, reading the paper in a gazebo nestled in a botanical garden until 10:00 a.m., go to work for an hour, then sit on a sidewalk cafe for a 3 hour lunch with friends, go back to work for an hour, then head off to a tavern-like dining room of a relative for a 4 hour dinner with a barrel of wine?

Caveman-type diets are typically described two ways.  The first premise, as you describe, Pearl, is that pre-industrial revolution food wasn't processed.  There wasn't much difference from a supposed cave man to 200 years ago.  You ate stuff locally grown or butchered and that was all there was.  The breakdown here.  Even if you're a vegetarian (or not), who would argue that taking out processed foods wouldn't be a good move?

The second paleo/caveman spin off is a weak attempt at deifying ketogenic diets.  "Because cave men at this way, so should we."  Um....if cave men could have gone to Dunkin Doughnuts for a long john and espresso, they would have.  They ate that way because that's what they could eat - IF - IF - IF you assume they just ate meat.  Who's to say meat was so easy to come by and they didn't eat mostly roots, berries, fruits, and vegetables?  The sun is THE energy source of the planet, producers (plants) create carbs from sunlight (roots and fruit) and consumers (us and other animals) eat it.  Consumers can also eat each other.  So, the two points that are ridiculously ignored are 1) is it even accurate that a primitive man ate just protein and fat from flesh, and 2) if they did - why does that make it good?  Where are the studies on their health?  Their life expectency was about 25 years old.  Holy stupid-wannabe-author-scientist stupidity!  Okay, so I got a little excited there - I took an Ergoburn AMP to get ready for a run.....gotta go run now!

I've kicked in the caveman diet to eat more whole food (fresh/organic where possible and it makes sense)....fewer supplements, fewer grains and drastically fewer processed foods.

Still eating various grain cereal (add in whey protein shake) in the morning along with eggs (I used to eat 1 whole egg and egg whites--a few times a week I now have 2 whole eggs)

1 - 2 cups of steamed vegetables

increased fresh fruit

omega 3 supplements (adjusted based on my salmon/sardine intake for the day)

macros on average:

225 C

200 P

50 f

I agree with Joe, if you keep the food choices to unprocessed (or at least minimally processed foods) you are way ahead of the game.  Then, keep your calories in check, exercise regularly and you should be doing very well for yourself.

Nothing to do with the caveman diet as Joe has my thoughts on that, pretty much covered.

But . . . .Joe . . . . where did you study European social habits, as it sounds like you have a pretty good picture in your mind before you even come over for a visit. Actually, some of what you have written could be true, especially in parts of the Mediterranean. Here in the frozen north, not quite so. The British and the Germans have to work hard for a living and EVEN the Scandinavians are beginning to catch up. As for a barrel of wine, I would need a second mortgage to buy one. I dare not even tell you what a glass of ordinary house wine costs here in Norway. . .  oh, OK then . .  about $13 ! Did you guys know that the only place we can buy wine here, is in State run shops ( not always 1 in every town either ). that are open from 10.00 am to 15.00 pm, monday to friday. The bit about about the robe, botanical garden and gazebo fits to a tee, though . . .

A boy can dream, can't he, Alan?  Don't ruin my view of Europe with inconvenient truth like that!!  Now I'll never come over there to visit you!

Joe

You are most welcome, any time. If you ever come to this neck of the woods ( Norway ), plan to spend what amounts to a small fortune on food & drink. I must admit to highlighting the negatives occasionally. The news yesterday, broadcast that, on average, everyone over the age of 20 in Norway, has a personal fortune of $ 328,000. Holding the rest of Europe to ransom by supplying from one of the major sources of the northern hemisphere's oil & gas, has it's advantages!

Whoops! Off track somewhat. Wasn't this about protein needs . . . . .

Joe,

You must have lived in Greece. 100% accuracy on that one.

Work? What is work?

Whoa - I'm retiring in Norway!  Didn't you say it's cold and a bit dreary - like London? 

So, back to protein and vegetarianism.  A major leg of this self-study is complete.  Blood work back from a year of eating no animal meat, but occasionally eggs and a scoop of protein powder or two per day. 

I'll get a full comparative analysis together, but it was a bit boring.  Most stats changed very little.  I'll get that together and post them very soon.  My next move is to start eating some animal protein per day, to effectively double my protein in take so it's up to 100-125 grams per day.  I'm going to use only locally-raised, zero chemical beef.  Still staying away from factory-farm animals.

Now who's trying to wind up who ? Just when I was thinking of writing of my experiences in NY this year. No, not really. I'll keep those under wraps . . . . .

Wow! I didn't realise that you were down to eating 50 or 60 gm of protein per day . . . .  and little or no changes in body chemistry. Music to my ears. For someone that spends hundreds of ( dollars ) per year on protein concoctions, whilst not really believing that it's necessary, but just because it is the accepted thing to do, it's great to read real evidence from someone you can trust. Keep the information of your experiences coming. Mmmm . . . . I guess you are saving that for a book . . . !!!!

I want to spend the time to get some longer-term data together; I have blood work dating back to almost 20 years ago, but here's what happened on this stint and a tiny synopsis:

Pre-vegetarian year / Post-vegetarian year:

Cholesterol was down 10 points

LDL was down a few points

HDL was about the same

Triglycerides ended up a couple points - could be a statistical mistake since LDL and total cholesterol was down

Blood sugar was up 3 points - also statistically insignificant, but actually expected with a more carb-dominant diet

Liver enzymes were much lower - less stress on the body?  Likely.

Total protein and creatinine was identical

BUN was lower

.....so by all counts virtually, it was improved, but not as much as I thought it would be.

One thing that I did see coming is about a 3 to maybe 4 lb drop in lean body mass, but I had not taken measurements since 2006.  At the beginning of 2009, I stopped training legs for 3 months entirely and took a year to come back, even now, not fully.  I've also had a tricep tendon and shoulder issue that has prevented me from full upper body work, so there are far more training reasons to see a slip than just diet, but that simply renders either inconclusive.  If I could say I lost even 1-2 lbs of lean body mass from pure vegetarianism, would that be acceptable?  Yes.  If it were every year?  No.  Would it stabilize and I would lose no more at a certain point?  Yes.  So, the rebound will tell the story.  I'm still not eating a huge amount of protein, but I have added back one serving of beef per day every day so far this week.  If I can see at 6 or 12 months that lean body mass is increasing again, clearly that was a big factor.  I do have to say the animal protein is a gut bomb.  I'm going to have to be careful with total amount per meal when carbs are present.  I'm sitting here having eaten dinner with about 5 ounces of beef, 30-40 g of carbs, and I feel like a slug.  Absolutely sick feeling.  The last two beef meals were a bit smaller and with a vegetable only and I didn't notice anything negative.

Onward - the self-research continues! 

That is really interesting stuff Joe.  I am curious to see what happens on leg two.  I have to agree in that the meat (I don't eat beef, but even chicken) sits in my stomach and feels so hard to digest lately.  Not really sure what that is about.  From what I have read about your experience and the way I feel, I have learned a lot and decided I would not do total vegetarianism because I just cannot give up that grilled chicken on my salad, but to include chicken or fish at every single meal is not necessary.  That is good news since all that meat makes me feel ill.  I think what your experiment may prove in the end is the old saying, everything in moderation.   No need to cut out meat entirely  (unless it is for your own personal/religious beliefs), but no need to eat your bodyweight in meat either.  But, I am going to follow along to see the final results.